Ep33 | Digital Fortifications: How Taiwan and Ukraine are Advancing Tech Security Under Threat

Transcript
Welcome to Hash It Out, a podcast built by data security experts. We decipher the data security landscape through honest conversations about today's headlines and tomorrow's challenges brought to you by Virtru. Let's dive in. On our latest episode of Hash It Out, Shannon Vaughn, Golsana Mondeva, and Jason Xu talk about how Ukraine and Taiwan turn relentless cyber threats into resilient digital services through innovation, public private collaboration, and cross border partnerships. Let's hash it out. Welcome to a special edition of Hash It Out live here at Virtu's headquarters. I'm Shannon Vaughn, and today we're exploring how two of the world's most digitally contested democracies, Ukraine and Taiwan, are turning sustained cyber threats into catalysts for innovation and resilience. So our episode today is titled Digital Fortifications, How Taiwan and Ukraine are Advancing Tech Security While Under Threat. I'm joined by two of the most incredible leaders who have lived this story firsthand. First, Gulsana Mamtieva, former director general of Ukraine's Ministry of Digital Transformation and currently a visiting scholar at Georgetown University. She helped build and transform Ukraine's digital infrastructure while defending against relentless Russian cyber campaigns. Jason Shu, former legislator in Taiwan's parliament and now a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute here in DC, where he focuses on tech cooperation with allies and partners and is known internationally for helping drive Taiwan's tech modernization initiatives while navigating ongoing cyber threats from across across the Taiwan Strait. So, Sana, Jason, I really appreciate it. I've been looking forward to this one for a while. Thanks for joining us. First, I'd like to set this set the stage a little. So you've both led, in moments of cyber defense. It wasn't theoretical. It it was actually existential to your nations. Ukraine has faced, you know, since the full scale invasion, digital warfare alongside physical contact, by the Russian threat. Taiwan is under near constant, digital surveillance and attack, by China, and others. Yet both your nations managed to modernize, innovate, and build digital trust while under direct threat and extreme pressure. So that's what I wanna talk about today. Really look forward to it. I wanna understand how did your democracies under continuous threat continue to modernize? So, Sanne, I'll I'll start with you. So when the invasion began, Ukraine's digital government services, the Dia platform, something that you had a a great hand in, it stayed online during the threat and also continued to advance. So tell us first, how did how did you guys pull that off? Yeah. It's a very good question. So the first, it's important to understand the Dia platform is now serves twenty two million users. It's pretty much all adult population in Ukraine considering, like, occupied churches, displaced people. And it's really without exaggeration and backbone of Ukrainian resilience, the reason why Ukrainian government continue to operate and serve its citizen in the most difficult and critical time. Dia was launched in twenty to twenty twenty two, basically just before COVID. And we were lucky to an extent having, it was like COVID was a testing ground. The first crisis that we gone through with Dia and, you know, like all governments and companies said during COVID prioritize digital transformation, like going digital, yes, and living there. And so the COVID provided us like testing opportunity. And then when full scale invasion happened, we were already well set up with a basic, very well developed digital public infrastructure, meaning like digital ID, digital payment system, sharing interoperability system between state records. And we were able to launch the government. Government were able to launch war related services that is needed today in maybe like three days. We're reusing the things that were done during COVID. And one example I will bring, for example, during COVID, were providing assistance or like incentives for those who got two vaccines. It's kind of the government program. If you got two vaccine, COVID vaccines, then there's like one thousand green that's paid to your account. And we see there, like we have information about person, we see their information about the vaccination record and we have payment information. So it was done already. We had some building block for that. And when the full scale innovation happened, we just like, okay, there's a bunch of people, like millions of people who are relocating or evacuating from the hotspots. Want government want to provide them assistance for evacuation. And then once we really just like change criterias and instead of checking the vaccination status, we were checking geo location. And we asked like, can you share geo location? Like you apply for the benefit. So, this is example how modular and agile the system had been built. And this is a tiny example. We were able to launch war related services such as like registering the damaged property, applying for compensation, again, benefits, unemployment benefits. In Ukraine, you can marry online. It's only one country you can do like totally. Now it's divorced in the process. So the whole society is working and the government working in the way that digital first mindset and considering like really thinking about what are the current needs and current problems. So continue to build convenient government. And it's not possible now to plan launch service like in six months because the circumstances are changing so quickly. And that's exactly what's happening in Ukraine. I think the partially because not partially, but generally because we were lucky to have this infrastructure before full scale Envision. We were lucky to have it tested and proved, and then we able, we had already this internal capacity to quickly navigate and adapt to current needs and problems of citizens using the full scale invasion. So one one quick follow-up, and I wanna get to Jason. The the I think to pull that off, it requires really two things. One, citizenry and two, a digital market or a, you know, a marketplace of businesses that are willing to shift their mindset. Right? And so one, the citizenry to to move to a digital first, you know, way of thinking, you know, there's a forcing function by the invasion. But on the other side, the business community of saying, hey. We're going to prop up a a a new capability, and we're gonna work with government. How how did you see both the the citizens and the businesses come together to to make that that switch that that, you know, I call it, like, the digital mindset switch. They say, hey, we're gonna work together to actually make this happen. Yeah. So it's a lot about trust. Like, the citizens are not using services that they're not trusting. Yep. And we launched small, like, digital driver license and some, like, digital paying fines and adding more and more features. When it's convenient, like the philosophy under this is like, it's convenient, it's for citizens, it's human centered, quick feedback loop. You can write literally to the Witsa prime minister. I need the service in Facebook or Instagram. And there will be a reply. So, there is a lurk really quickly and immediately Denise goes to backlog. So that's very human centricity, build a trust, I think. And when it's convenient, we also were communicating a ton, a lot. There was so a lot of myths, the government surveillance, the controlling everything. There's a lot of work to actually make people believe and see how transparent it is that, and how responsive the tool is to their needs. And regarding the business, you definitely cannot escalate the scale without business. Remember about business integrating the hotels, the hospitals, they're using DL4, for example, like Huddle using DL4 check-in. They're not scanning your passwords physically. You just share digital password with the huddle or the hospital. So there are like specific team dedicated in the government who are working with business, small, big, like any kind of business who wanted to integrate the And it was like airlines, trains, the transport companies and so on. And it's actually when the incentive comes from government, the government is offering like business opportunities. But then business comes to like, hey, we can sing that we can do together this and this, and there are more use cases comes up. So the, I would say government providing the rails or the road and the business then bring such valuable insights and again, like use cases that we were not thinking in the beginning about. That's interesting. I want to come back to that. But Jason, you know, from a Taiwan perspective and, actually, you just came out of Ukraine a few weeks ago. But from a Taiwan perspective, you know, one of the things that I love that you said is, you know, it's a war without smoke. Right? Taiwan is under constant barrage. Right? Whether it's crossing the ADIs, whether it's, you know, infiltrating cyber networks. How has Taiwan done the same thing from a day to day resiliency standpoint inside the Taiwan ecosystem or environment? Well, Shannon, thank you for having me here. And also it's great pleasure to be with you here. I must begin by noting that what Ukraine has done is remarkable. And frankly, it's textbook material for all countries to learn from, especially countries that are now dealing with tangible and intangible threats around the world. And certainly Taiwan is at the front line of facing this threat. As you have mentioned, I spent ten days in Ukraine with General David Petraeus. We visited the front line and we talk with people at corners of the society and understanding how they come together as a whole to defy the constant aggression and as well as ongoing threats from Russia. What I learned from my experience in Ukraine is this ability to iterate. And also they have been able to take that experience and really turn it into a real life experience and actually turning that into a product that to be used on the frontline. Now what Taiwan faces, although it's not as dire as what Ukraine is dealing with on a daily basis, but it's the constant psychological pressure and as well as China sending three thousand warplanes every year to circle our island. And again, each in closer and closer to our shore, and also the constant pounding on our critical infrastructure by cyber attacks, as well as all sorts of information campaign to divide our social cohesion and social unity. And so for Taiwan, it's really becoming a wake up moment that for the last thirty, forty years, we've largely lived under this threat, but the threat is not palpable. That's since end of twenty eighteen, beginning of twenty nineteen, we've seen what happened to Hong Kong. So whatever was offered by Beijing to initiate a political negotiation and political discussion become something that we don't desire. And so literally this idea of a resilient island become what we wanted to stand up for. And also we know that this is our home and we can only defend ourselves first before other can come to defend Taiwan. So three things we're doing on, first of all, the national level is we set up this whole of a society resilient community, a committee by bringing together both public and private sector actors to look at critical infrastructure, to look at medical system, to look at communication, how do we come together to develop a resilient system? That's number one. And secondly, on the civilian level, for the first time in the last twenty years, we've done drills and exercise on a metropolitan scale mimicking the real situation if China were to mount an amphibious landing and actually in an urban setting, what would that look like? And on the digital front, which is, again, as you have alluded, it's a war without smoke. It's penetrating our social fabric and it's also happening through layers and layers of social influencers campaign. We've seen China buying up ads on YouTube, on TikTok, on Google, spreading malicious messages. And they use the type of personalities that you think they are doing non violent or non malicious activities, but again, they are spreading rumors and spreading misinformation across our society. And what China intends to do is to divide Taiwan and actually cripple our system without firing a bullet. And that's what they are doing every day, because they know as they could salami slice Taiwan, and at the end the day, Taiwan would be capitulated to surrender. And that's why we need to stand up to fight. And that's also the message I've shared with our European friends that if an Indo Pacific contingency happens in Taiwan, it would have a global rippling effect. And I think no country will stand in this type of danger without having to understand what's at stake here. That's wonderful. The similar follow-up actually that that I gave Sana is so, you know, as a legislator, you helped pass some really forward leaning, like, tech legislation. But I I think one of the points that you made is how do you strike the balance of protecting Taiwan and its citizens while also, you know, encouraging open innovation and, you know, providing services, you know, to the citizens without fully locking them down, right? How do you enable innovation to happen? How do you enable that digital ecosystem to thrive knowing that you're constantly under threat and there's always an actor that's trying to get inside of that? Well, the biggest threats that we're dealing with is obviously on the cyber front and also all kinds of things that they're trying to do in the gray zone activities. And for example, the damage on the undersea cable, as well as all the militia boats intrusion in our waters. And for this type of things, really the regular civilians are quite removed from it. So we are not dealing with them on the frontline, but the issue is that China is trying to attack and cripple our energy grid system. That's probably our biggest vulnerability. And so how do we create redundancy of backing up data or the data storage? And what you've mentioned that to enable the seamless continuity of internet during war, also we have issues that we don't actually have access to Starlink. And that's my biggest learning when I visited Ukraine that everything rely on ubiquitous communication and connectivity. And we are now short of that, that's going to be very, very challenging. And secondly is that how do we organize societies and also civilian groups into different nodes that these nodes can be mobilized and activated during the crisis. What I learned from Ukraine is when I visited their drone army or drone regimen are somewhat a fusion of military and civilians. And that's our weak points that we rely too much on our official military establishment. We need enable our tech sector, for example, semiconductor tech sector, our computer and electronic supply chain, our drone supply chain, and enable our civilians to be able to fly drones when needed. And they need to be able to launch drones on the top of their rooftop and that sort of things. And so I think this sense of urgency is somewhat still lacking in Taiwanese society because we've never dealt with a war in the last fifty years already. So how do we instill a sense of urgency? And one of our biggest takeaway when we visited Ukraine is that we need to send a team to Ukraine and to immerse underground, to learn from you guys, and then to really come back to our home and our island to really innovate and then create our own solutions and our version of undersea drone and the type of capabilities that you use, but it would be needed to localize in Taiwan. And another thing that we face is the resupply and a stockpile. So Taiwan is an island, we rely on imports of LNG and food and all sorts of things. During the crisis, the resupply chain will be long and painful. And how do we ensure that we are able to produce and also to make things that can be used during the wartime, I think it's going to be incredibly critical. I I and so that's actually where I was gonna go. So I I think one of the interesting things is Taiwan and Ukraine both sit at this intersection of geopolitics and global supply chains. And so, you know, I think of Taiwan is, you know, maybe the the the start of that supply chain for a lot of things like semiconductors and others. Ukraine currently, you know, is importing but rapidly becoming actually a a weapons exporter. Right? So I I'd be interested in kind of maybe, Sana, your thoughts first on how do you guys think about digital or tech tech technology sovereignty, And, like, what can larger nations learn from Ukraine and Taiwan of, like, how do you protect those innovation ecosystems to be able to bring capability into the global supply chain? Very good question and probably the number one now in Ukraine, like in terms of strategic industry because Ukraine were able to so Ukraine now producing more than four million drones a year. In procurement cycle in Ukraine for drone, there's a like parallel acquisition track for drones. And if you may think about this like Amazon style procurement where military units can order on specific platform, this specific type of drone they're working for. And yeah, there's a lot of innovation happening, like even in digitalizing and changing the system, how this work. In terms of sovereignty and capability, of course, this is Ukraine, and you mentioned there's, like, several of them. Ukraine is really innovative and, you know, there's a strong incentive. The bombs are falling from the sky, so you don't have much time to think about and build a strategy in writing papers. So everything happens today now and military units work together hand in hand with engineers that's provide like in this proved to be really good as a like working way of the organizational change that might need to be done in every country, who are like confronting crisis. But in terms of components and supply chain, Ukraine now in a year or like year and a half would be able to locally manufacturing eighty percent of what's needed of components needed for the local production. And it's really growing. So government working hard in European union helping with us, but they have their own troubles of course, with the supply chain because so many components comes from, like we're coming in the beginning from China. So now we are at the point where the Marine drones and FPV drones are possible to do to like one hundred percent locally. But however, we understand there are like this twenty percent of the and it's connected to the rare earth that comes from China. And we continue to be like dependent on that. And I think this is where the, like you mentioned that the cooperation should be like, it's not possible to speak about technological sovereignty, to speak about the fragmentation, but I really hardly see where country alone can do this, any country. So at least like this consortiums or strategic alignment still should be and need to be there with involvement of course in business. So this twenty percent will cover each other or de risking each other among the countries who stay for their common values is the future. Jason? Yeah, in other words, and also resonating what you said for Taiwan, is imperative to create something that I call a zero day task force. Because when I think about crisis, oftentimes we don't get it until it's here, but then I think society doesn't organize itself to be prepared. So I think it's very important to develop a public private partnership to set up a task force in a way to look at what would be needed at, it's literally zero day from the stockpile point of view, from energy storage point of view, from supply chain resilience point of view, from how to basically mobilize our society point of view. And I feel that that's really lacking, at least there's a gap within our society amongst the civilian sector and the government sector and the military establishment that these three silos are functioning in isolation and that's the biggest proverb. And I feel like this idea of harnessing what has been happening in Ukraine and then also embark the mindset of move fast and break things, and then try to develop a Silicon Valley type of iteration and urgency, it's what's needed for society like Taiwan. People talk about a twenty twenty seven timeline and Admiral Philip Davis has testified in the US Congress that China is likely to have a capability to invade Taiwan in twenty twenty seven. Twenty twenty seven is not far away, it's less than two years from today. And I think what will happen to Taiwan is going to happen gradually, but suddenly, and it's happening every day, but then we are so numb about it because every day we are removed from it because this sense of urgency is not there. And I think that's what worries me. I mean, it's similar to what we saw in Ukraine, Right? Yeah. There was like in Ukraine, I remember the news and different kind of testimonials that Russia will invade or, like, in couple of years or they will invade part of Ukraine. And the like, what's happened in reality that was not protected, like, less, not many people expected that. Even like Ukrainian government receiving all this intelligence information. So in a part of this, everyone a lot of people believe that Ukraine will fall in three days. I clearly remember the headlines and news when it's not a when, but if, but when. And yeah, I think this sense of urgency and having some kind of a deadline of twenty twenty seven or like in Ukrainian case, was, I don't remember, twenty twenty five. So yeah, but it's happened in twenty twenty two and Russia used you know, the tool to do this unexpected day and they were not admitting, you know, this all the gathering that it's for training and so on. So of course, that is you should not hope that it will be, you know, some kind of scheduled thing. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that I that you both have said, which I think is important to highlight is like collaboration and partnerships are key. Right? I don't think Ukraine I mean, Ukraine single handedly fought off the Russians for more than three days, but it got backstopped by partners. Right? Yeah. Taiwan partners can help drive the the Chinese threat away. Right? One of the things is, you know, war doesn't stop at your border. Right? Cyber doesn't stop at your border. Right? You know, we are all interconnected now. So partnerships really drive that. The question I have for you guys is, maybe, Jason, like, how have alliances now whether that's government or public private, you know, how have they helped to strengthen resiliency and maybe digital resilience? As a cybersecurity company, we should probably talk about cyber a little bit, how does resiliency come to the fore through partnerships? Yeah, we've certainly taken this very seriously. And again, any sort of attack or break down on our critical infrastructure would be a major crisis to Taiwan, frankly, globally. If you think about Taiwan's position in the global semiconductor supply chain, ninety percent of world's most advanced ships are made in Taiwan. It's a single biggest flash point I think it will be caused the global crisis. Now, what we've done in terms of the partnerships within this regard is we've developed working through private sector and also telecom company and startups to ensure that throughout the society, when a crisis happens, there would always be backup solutions. There was always be backup use for data storage, electricity, and also power to be used. And for Taiwan, our goal again, is to be able to sustain long enough that the global community will come and also to pressurize China or Beijing to step out. A more likely scenario than an invasion would be a blockade. And what China is trying to do is to establish a fate complete, basically by saying that claiming that any affair or contingency happened in the Taiwan Strait is an internal affair and no country should get involved. And that creates a situation from a global narrative perspective. If China is able to spin it that way and no countries will be like, oh, that's your business, we don't want to get involved. So it is important to share a common narrative that first of all, defend democracy and secondly, this type of a malicious act is not to be tolerated. And thirdly, a fall of Taiwan would be a fall to a global system as well. So this is huge to consider. And also I've been in a scenario planning exercise where a contingency happens to Taiwan, Russia take advantage and exploit it. So it becomes a two seater scenario that Indo Pacific happens and then Russia also exploited this opportunity. And on the cyber front, the partnership is important because I talk about Taiwan is constantly under cyber attack millions of times every month. During Pelosi's visits, they were able to take over seven Eleven convenience stores, screens, and then replace it with malicious messages. Now the issue is how can we share this intelligence with our neighboring countries like Japan, Philippines, so that we create what I call a digital dome so that we can be sheltered and at least to have some sort of intelligence sharing and a Bex Perkins sharing mechanism for that matter. Yeah. I think I I think intelligence sharing information, you know, in cooperation. I mean, we've seen Ukraine has been backstopped by, you know, EU, NATO support, American support by being able to bring intelligence and, you know, other information securely, to the battlefield. I I'd be interested in your thoughts of, like That that like Obviously, that's a great move. How do we do more of that? And are there gaps? Yeah. I think that's so I would define that this technological sovereignty is not the ability to do things on your own, but ability to build partnerships. And key to that, while you build partnerships, of course, a lot of the security people will say, okay, that that's also creates vulnerabilities. Right? And and that was particular case in Ukraine when we, you know, we were lucky to have support by big American companies, said the Taiwan we needed to relocate our data to the cloud because Russia precisely bombed the data centers. Yeah, but we were like, you know, two weeks ago, we relocated our data to the cloud and it was like secret operation. Now we speak of course about this as a valuable lesson. So the key insights for us is how you build and sync and prepare for this partnerships. And I think what's how you cover risk of vulnerabilities that you create or dependencies, The Europe is thinking a lot about that. Like all the navigating the political dynamics is interoperability and companies should think about this. There is no way we can build and have a trusted relationship between businesses and government where there's still vendor lock in exists. There's no case for that. I think like in the, we, everyone in the, every government already understand that and wants to build under, we will see more policy about that. That's easy word, interoperability, but I know in practice how that, how hard it is, especially if you think like in the original or global perspective, and I'm speaking specifically for the European Union, like coordinating all the members and companies that. But this is the only probably way to move forward where we can combine this. We are able to build partnership, we are able to build alliances, but also there is no critical, there's no dependence in the critical government functions and missions. So, yeah. Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I'd say, and you said interoperability, so I have to plug, one of the things that we did here was we helped to, you know, coauthor and have inputs into a thing called Zero Trust Data Format. It's data interoperability, right? So, if we are sharing intelligence, if we are sharing information and we want to ensure that, you know, a third party actor or nation state is not tampering with their data, that we need to be able to share that securely in an interoperable way to ensure that, you know, it is trusted, it is validated, and it's it's intended for the right recipients at the right time. So one kinda last question, and then then I'll get to closing. You know, we are sitting here in in DC. This is the nexus of, you know, some of the best intelligence agencies in the world, some of the best defense minded thinkers in the world. You know, if if you had the opportunity to speak to those leaders, you know, inside the DMV, what is the point that you would want them to be thinking about? Right? Whether it's from a a Taiwan or Ukraine perspective, whether you think it's from a US perspective in lending a hand. Like, is a gap that you would love to see highlighted? Maybe Jason, I'll start with you. Yeah, I would say, Taiwan, again, the biggest threat that we face is the ability to develop our own capabilities when the crisis happens. So we need to do two things, defense core production and core development. And if US tech companies can see Taiwan, not only just as the market, but actually as an extension of democracy that needs to be protected and to be able to really use and utilize Taiwan's supply chain and then to entrust that capability to be produced on the island, onshore. And I think that was sent a lot of goodwill messages to Taiwanese society. Now the issue we face are multifaceted. Biggest issue that we face is China's psychological warfare and this spreading American skepticism. There's a great sentiment that Beijing is spreading through various groups that America will abandon Taiwan, while America onshore the ships to United States. And that's the day that Taiwan's silicon shield would disappear. But if US wants to send an important message to Taiwan is by getting the capabilities to produce onshore to Taiwan and that would make Taiwanese people believe that America's commitment to democracy is substantiated. And it's very important because CCP and Beijing are eroding American democracy from outside and we are making it easy for them to do so. And they are winning this war without firing a bullet because they are penetrating to the minds and hearts of our allies. And one by one through their phones, through the stuff that they watch, through the content that they consume. So we need to show it by action taken. Yeah, one thing I'll say, a plug for Taiwan, I told you I used to be the assistant army attache to Taiwan. I've never seen in the seventy countries I've visited, I've never seen a more robust democracy. It is shocking when you go there to see democracy firsthand and people really getting out and being forward. So a plug for any legislator who hasn't been, find a way to get there and see it firsthand. Sure. Sana? Yeah. I think today from the I'm speaking from the, like, Ukrainian perspective, is a frontline for the autocrats versus democrats. Right? And the fight that is happening in Ukraine is so crucial for the world order. If you imagine Ukraine because, like, it's so black and white. If you imagine and that Ukraine will fall, that will change the whole landscape and geopolitical and balance of the power. And for sure, Russia will not stop in Ukraine. In any case, there's much more and bigger ambition. At the same time so there's a there's a need to support Ukraine not just because it's Ukraine, but the whole I think the history in the future is deciding I'm I'm very sure, and we know that, that China is looking very closely what's happening in Ukraine and how the western countries are reacting, how NATO is working together. They're testing. Like, Russia is testing, sending drones to Poland, seeing how the Western allies are able to work quickly and working together. So, that is a frontline for democratic world and a testament. At the same time, is showing Ukrainian Russian war is the most technological war. We'll never let me direct to repeat this. The most technological war we have ever seen. And the new doctrines and the new lessons are coming up that because communication is a big deal and other countries should come and study. And you rightly mentioned that. And it's, I think a very right move to come actually study and see what's happening on the frontline, how it works on practice, because we can build the products and solutions and companies can do this years in the closed doors. But when you hand it to the actually end user hands and receive feedback, it may like make you pivot in twenty four hours. And it is super valuable. And what's important, Ukraine is very open to that. And we are constantly saying that this is lessons and it's not just, you know, see, come, link and read some paper, but we also learning. We got things changing so much on the frontline and every day. Yeah. So that's, I think two main blocks I want to speak about. Like that's to say that the fight in Ukraine is existential for democracy and for the global order in how Ukraine will you know, whether Ukraine will be able to achieve just peace, not just like surrendering, you know, territory to the aggressor tolerating it and being forced to tolerate aggressor. And also see there, like what kind of a potential in innovation Ukraine is bringing to the world in terms of like in digital civilians and affords, but also military affords. That's fair. Yeah. That's wonderful. And you actually touched on the last question I was gonna ask is, like, what lesson should every democracy learn from the shared experience of Taiwan and Ukraine? And I I think you guys have hit that out of the park. You know? First, I wanna say thank you. This has been it's like my dream podcast I've been wanting to do for a good reason. I I think everybody's gonna really enjoy it. But I think you guys have shown that, you know, resilience in while moving, you know, under fire is more than just about technology. It's more than just about policy. It's about, you know, trust. It's about partnership. It's about purpose. It's about will. And I think that the Taiwan's and the u Ukraines have have shown that to worldwide democracies. So, you know, thank you to both of your nations. To our listeners, thanks for listening in from the front lines of, you know, digital defense, whether it's in Kyiv or Taipei. I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned, and I I think we got a lot of great insights today. So Jason, Sana, thank you so much, everyone. I'm Shannon Vaughn, and this is Hash It Out. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, leave us a five star review, and don't miss us the next time we Hash It Out. Like, follow, and subscribe to us on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts, all linked below.